Hier ein schöne Recherche von @marijn van gils mit einigen Zeichnungen, die ich noch nicht kannte. Sehr interessant. Mein Dank auch an ihn, dass ich es hierher kopieren darf. Das Original kommt von hier http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/vie...art=320#p914749 Diesen Baubericht solltet ihr wirklich genießen, ich tue es auf alle Fälle :-)
I found these ‘4 views of the Redoutable at Trafalgar’ on an art auction website:
I also found 3 illustrations in a very similar, yet slightly different style online.
And I also found 4 similar illustrations from a British newspaper. These state that an original set of illustrations was made by an officer of the Redoutable for captain Lucas. They were passed on to his granddaughter. She allowed copies to be made for the Musée de la Marine at the Louvre. Of these copies, another set of copies was made for the newspaper.
So, there are 3 series: A: the originals: I believe these to be the image above. I cut them out below to show them at higher resolution, marked with ‘A’. The attribution to Crépin doesn’t fit with ‘an officer of the Redoutable’, but one of both sources can easily be mistaken.
B: a set of copies in the Musée the la Marine. I have no way to be sure, but I believe these to be the files I marked with ‘B’ below. I found only 3, so one must be still out there.
C: a set of copies of those copies in the newspaper. These are quite obvious. I marked them with ‘C’ below.
I tried to order the illustrations of each set chronologically (from 1 to 4) and correlate the three sets:
1: Victory approaching the combined line, being fired on by the Bucentaure and Redoutable:
2: Victory and Redoutable early in the battle, before the arrival of Téméraire (approaching at the left):
3: The height of the battle for Redoutable: figting both Victory and Téméraire, while the Tonnant is raking her stern:
4: The redoutable after the battle, towed by the Swiftsure and about to founder:
Some observations and musings:
The copies of the Musée the la Marine and the newspaper are very similar in composition and content. But they differ quite significantly from the originals. That may not be surprising, as who knows under what conditions and with what intent the copies for the museum were made…
I have tried to correlate each set as good as I can, but because of these differences I cannot be 100% sure. It would help to find the missing illustration of the copies in the museum. Also, any input on my (uncertain!) attempt at correlation, or any info on these illustrations, is very welcome!
In any case, I think we can only use the original set as a sound historical source. But then again, we also have to treat that one as a historical source and take the ability and intent of the original maker into account.
And that brings us to the first illustration (Victory closing in on Bucentaure and Redoutable), as the original differs significantly from the copies.
On the original we don’t see any royals. Not even any topgallant sails, as her main topgallant mast and fore topmast are gone. This doesn’t show she had no royals set during the approach as all topgallant masts are gone in this illustration. But it does show that we cannot trust the copies who do show royals, but based on what?
The original does fit better with Lucas’ report than the copies, as the report states that the main topgallant mast was gone by the time Victory broke the line. Also, het fore topsail is shown shot down as described in the report.
British sources on Vic’s damage do not indicate that her fore topmast was destroyed, but the illustration could have made a free interpretation from Lucas’ report (which only talks about the fore topsail and its yard, not topmast, while it does mention the main topmast going down).
Anyway, my overall feel is that the original series does follow the report of Lucas’ pretty closely. That makes it into a very interesting visual source. We can hope that they don’t contain mayor mistakes, especially to the appearance of Redoutable as the ‘client’ (and maybe the maker?) would have known that ship intimately.
But then again, we can also expect some mistakes. The most obvious one seems to be the stern configuration of Victory with open galleries.
But during Trafalgar, Victory’s stern was never visible directly from Redoutable: Redoutable’s poop deck was alongside Victory’s quarter deck during their engagement. Only after Victory broke loose later during the battle, Redoutable’s crew, or what was left of it, had a chance to see her stern. But I can imagine that they had much more serious matters on their mind at that time… So it may not be surprising that the illustrator ‘filled in the blanks’ with a rather ‘standard’ British first rate stern?
It is also striking to me how the general view of both ships looks a lot like in the painting "Le Redoutable à la bataille de Trafalgar" by louis-Philippe Crépin, dated 1807 ( https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:...gar_mg_9431.jpg ):
The wrong stern on Victory, the position of her fallen mizzen mast and ensign, mainsail not yet clewed (while it is on timeframe ‘2’ in the illustrations), stun’sail configuration, fore topmast down and sail hanging over the fighting top and lower yard, main topgallant gone, … Redoutable is of course missing more of her masts and rigging as the moment portrayed here is later in the battle than in the first illustration, but her general position and appearance is very similar too.
If this is indeed Crépin using one of his illustrations to develop the composition of a painting later on, but from a different moment in the battle, this gives a most interesting glimpse in his artistic process!
It doesn’t necessarily prove that he is the author of the original illustrations (he could have been showed or even lend them by Lucas), but it does become a little more likely. The high quality of the illustrations also leads me to believe that they were not just made by an officer of the Redoutable, but by a trained artist.
Sorry for the long post, and without any plastic in it! Anyway, I’m very interested in any ideas or observations anyone can make on these!
Wenn die Bilder zutreffend waren/gewesen wären, dann hätte die Victory achtern noch die Galerien besessen!
:-)
LG, Herbert
It ain't a hobby, if you gotta hurry! -- Die Wahrheit triumphiert nicht. Ihre Gegner sterben aus. -- If you don't get older and wiser... then you just get older.
"In 20 Jahren wirst Du mehr enttäuscht sein, über die Dinge, die du nicht getan hast, als über die, die du getan hast. Also löse die Knoten, laufe aus aus dem sicheren Hafen. Erfasse die Passatwinde mit deinen Segeln. Erforsche. Träume." - Mark Twain
Eine Demokratie lebt von der Vielfalt der unterschiedlichen Meinungen. Das setzt aber voraus, dass man die Stärke besitzt, die Meinungen der anderen zu ertragen. - Ein totalitäres Regime ist immer ein Zeichen von Schwäche der Machthaber. - Ich liebe es, in einer Demokratie zu leben!
@dafi, ja, sehr interessant, sowohl das Zeichenmaterial als auch der Baubericht - faszinierendes Handling von Kupferdraht, und eindrucksvolle Arbeit mit Schöpfkelle zur Gestaltung der Wasseroberfläche.
Was, abgesehen von der engen Verwandschaft zu Crépins Gemälde, bei den A-Skizzen besonders auffällt, ist die Temeraire. Der im Gemälde ohnehin schon etwas schmal geratene gelbe Streifen ist in 2A noch reduzierter, variiert allerdings wieder, auch die Anordnung betreffend, in 3A. Bei Victory und Redoutable gibt es zumindest ein gefestigteres Darstellungsschema als bei Temeraire.
Bei der Betrachtung ist mir noch ein Detail aufgefallen: Temeraires Ensign ist dunkel, und der Blick aufs Gemälde bestätigt, Crépin ordnet die Temeraire dem Blue Ensign von Collingwoods Kanalflotte zu.
I'm sorry for writing in English, but my German only allows me to understand, but not to express myself...
Zitat von Maik.L im Beitrag #4Was, abgesehen von der engen Verwandschaft zu Crépins Gemälde, bei den A-Skizzen besonders auffällt, ist die Temeraire. Der im Gemälde ohnehin schon etwas schmal geratene gelbe Streifen ist in 2A noch reduzierter, variiert allerdings wieder, auch die Anordnung betreffend, in 3A. Bei Victory und Redoutable gibt es zumindest ein gefestigteres Darstellungsschema als bei Temeraire.
Good observation Maik.L! I'm affraid we cannot trust these artworks too much on the exact appearance of the English ships. They were made in France without access to the British ships, or the means of research we are used to nowadays. Information about things like paint schemes could only come from eyewithness accounts, and those might have been absent for this kind of 'details', or if they were available they could also have been mistaken. During such a battle, I can imagine the senses of the crew being overladed, and their mind focussed on other priorities...
I would think the details of the Redoutable may be more trustworthy, as Lucas would have known his ship and was able to point out big mistakes to the artist. But also here we have to be careful, because we do not know the interaction between Lucas and the artist...
Zitat von Maik.L im Beitrag #5Bei der Betrachtung ist mir noch ein Detail aufgefallen: Temeraires Ensign ist dunkel, und der Blick aufs Gemälde bestätigt, Crépin ordnet die Temeraire dem Blue Ensign von Collingwoods Kanalflotte zu.
Again good observation! Another clear link between these illustartions and the painting. For anyone stumbling on this thread:
Hatte Nelson nicht angeordnet alle Schiffe unter dem White Ensign fahren zu lassen um dem Feind möglichst keine taktischen Infos zu verraten? Habe ich irgendwie dunkel in Erinnerung.
Zitat von dafi im Beitrag #7Hatte Nelson nicht angeordnet alle Schiffe unter dem White Ensign fahren zu lassen um dem Feind möglichst keine taktischen Infos zu verraten? Habe ich irgendwie dunkel in Erinnerung.
XXXDAn
I read something like that too, and I just found it again! :)
'Voices from the battle of Trafalgar' states on p142: 'Identifying friend from foe in the smoke of naval battle was vitally important. Nelson was a vice admiral of the White and at Trafalgar he decided that the whole fleet was to wear his flag, the White Ensign, because it was more easily distinguishable from the French tricolour. Normally, Collingwood's ships would have worn the Blue Ensign, since he was a vice admiral of the Blue.'
This is illustrated by the Dodd panorama on p144-145
And then it continues: 'As soon as Nelson noticed that the iron hoops round the enemy's masts were painted black he ordered the British ships to paint theirs white so that even with ensigns shot away, friend could be distinguished from foe.'
Does anyone know anything about this? Another source maybe? And how did they do it? All the way up to the fighting tops? When did they do this? If it was the day of the battle, this seems a bit unpractical, but maybe it was during the blockade, several days earlier? Did they really use white, or rather the same colour as the rest of the mast? Several deck-view illustrations and paintings of Victory seem to confirm that the hoops were light indeed, in more or less the same colour as the mast.
Zitat von William Beatty, Seite 23Zur Unterscheidung vom Feind und in Übereinstimmung mit den zuvor vom Oberbefehlshaber erteilten Befehlen wurden Union-Jacks im Topp des Fockmastes und an den Bramstengestagen der Schiffe gehisst. Auf Anweisung Seiner Lordschaft hissten die verschiedenen Divisionen der Flotte außerdem St. Georgsflagge oder White Ensign, die Farben des Oberbefehlshabers, um während der Schlacht Verwechslungsgefahr durch mehrere Nationalflaggen auszuschließen.
In "British flags, their early history, and their development at sea; with an account of the origin of the flag as a national device" heißt es:
Zitat von William GordonSo gab Nelson im Oktober 1805 folgendes Memorandum heraus:
In Anwesenheit eines Feindes sollen alle Schiffe unter meinem Kommando weiß flaggen, und ein Union Jack soll vom Vorbramstengestag wehen.
Und als der Feind bei Trafalgar das Feuer eröffnete, hisste Collingwood (Vice-Admiral of the Blue) seine blaue Flagge, doch die gesamte Flotte, sein Flaggschiff eingeschlossen, hisste das White Ensign. Nelsons Idee, eine zusätzliche Unionsflagge zu hissen, um Verwechselungen bezüglich der Nationalität auszuschließen, war auch im jüngsten Krieg (WK I) von Interesse, da sich die britische und die deutsche Flagge in der Entfernung sehr ähnelten.
So wie ich den Text verstehe, fuhr nur die Royal Sovereign unter blauer und zusätzlich weißer Flagge. Wenn also Crépin ein Blue Ensign ins Spiel bringt, bedeutet das zumindest, der Versuch, die beiden Flottenverbände in aller Stille zusammenzulegen, ist dem Gegner nicht entgangen.
Zitat von Maik.L im Beitrag #13Hier noch zwei Online-Bücher, die eventuell interessieren: The Trafalgar Role und [URL=https://archive.org/details/enemyattrafalgar00frasuoft/mode/2up]The enemy at Trafalgar/URL]
Many thanks Maik.L, those are very interesting indeed!
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Bilder von Trafalgar aus Sicht des Kommandanten Jean Jaques Etienne Lucas der Redoutable
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28.10.2020 08:38 (zuletzt bearbeitet: 28.10.2020 10:41)
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